Less haste, more prudence | Joyce Cassar

There is more to being against divorce than just religious fundamentalism, and Zwieg Bla Divorzju lobbyist Joyce Cassar is keen to add a secular dimension to the No campaign.

Secularism is hard to come by in Malta at the best of times. At the height of an increasingly hysterical divorce campaign, the prospect of encountering secular arguments among ‘No’ lobbyists appears impossible.

But appearances are deceptive; and when I meet Joyce Cassar for this interview, she prefaces her entire contribution by affirming that she is “not a fundamentalist.”

What is it, then, that has prompted her to take a front-seat role in the campaign?

“First of all, I resent the fact that the divorce issue has been hijacked,” she begins. “The way the private bill was put forward in such a rush implies that no consideration has been given to how sensitive and delicate the matter really is...” 

More than the principle of the thing, it seems that Cassar’s primary objection is to the apparent haste with which the issue has been forced onto the public.

“I ask: what’s behind the frenzy of escalating the issue, as if it were a death-and-life matter? By this I am not being insensitive and ignoring the suffering of people; on the contrary I have a broader perspective of the various forms of suffering involved...”

Turning to the law itself (as proposed in the private members’ bill) she proceeds to dissect the individual proposals one by one... rather hastily, or so I thought as an interviewer trying desperately to keep up.

“When a divorce law does not make any distinction between victims and… others (not to use such an ugly term as ‘culprits’); when it gives the same rights and benefits even to the one responsible for infidelity, violence, abandonment…  when divorce gives the absolute right to separate without consent from the other party (except in very few cases, such as when the partner who is a perpetrator of violence and abuse will not consent to divorce or accept to undergo therapy); and when, for no reason other than the fact that you want a change, you ignore your commitment and responsibility… Divorce in this form will in the long term be more detrimental than beneficial to society. It will not solve the issue of suffering, except in few cases. Instead, it will increase the level of such suffering and the number of victims in future. This, in my opinion, increases social chaos.”

But doesn’t this social chaos already exist? I bring to her attention a question that is often asked in this context: in what way does divorce differ from separation in this regard? Why is the introduction of divorce considered such an earth-shattering prospect, whereas separation, with all its analogous results, is simply accepted as part of the scenery?

Cassar concedes that separation does take its own toll, but comes back with a surprisingly pragmatic reply. “You can’t legislate against separation, because you can’t realistically legislate against people upping and leaving their spouses.”

This perplexes me somewhat. Doesn’t the same apply to divorce, I ask? She shakes her head vigorously. “No, because divorce entails giving rights to those people who have abandoned their spouses. There is a difference between acknowledging that a reality exists, and changing how society works in order to accommodate people’s whims…”

This brings Cassar to one of her main arguments: in an age when professionalism is expected in all matters, she is frustrated by the apparent amateur way the country has approached such a serious issue.

“In a modern society, the State and other stakeholders opt to have impact assessments on virtually anything which is proposed – roads, bridges, public projects, etc. – in order to evaluate the consequences on both the individual and society in the short as well as the long term. So why are we not conducting an impact assessment on divorce, which is bound to have a profound impact on society… especially in such a small country?”

At this point I interject with a rather hackneyed question: does size really matter? Would it have been different, if Malta was a much larger country? And if so, isn’t this an unfair distinction to make?

“The issue of the size of our island is not being mentioned in any sense of inferiority; it’s more a question of logic. In larger countries, issues like the percentage of children who, in some years’ time, might to some extent or other be related, are on the increase. I am aware that this can happen anyway with cohabitation and separation; but if the consequences of divorce impact our society with the same increases experienced by other countries, can you imagine what structures we would be promoting?”

We agree to come to the supposed impact of divorce later. In the meantime, I point out that her arguments so far appear to be more concerned with how the bill was drawn up and piloted… rather than the issue of divorce in itself. Would it be fair to say that she is campaigning against the proposal in its current form, but not against divorce in principle?

“It’s true to say that I honestly don’t know where I’d stand, if I felt that a divorce proposal were responsible, had solid parameters for protection of the most vulnerable… including the children and victims of abuse, abandonment, rejection and infidelity, and so on. But as a responsible citizen I cannot be in favour giving rights to all arbitrarily! In society we have rights, yes, but these need to be closely bound to responsibilities. We cannot give rewards indiscriminately because in the long term this is what causes negative influences on mindsets especially the most vulnerable groups…” 

But would she consent to divorce legislation if it were presented in a way that met all these considerations? She pauses before replying.

“Let’s just say that, should the divorce issue not have been proposed in the manner it was, I personally would have had different considerations…” 

Among these considerations are a few important ones that have admittedly not been given their due prominence in the debate: for instance, fiscal issues.

“I am not a financial expert, but simple mathematics direct me to understand that if a country such as the UK has been considering introducing a new tax on divorce – proposed by the coalition government in the past months – this to me is indicative of some points of concern.”

Divorce rates are increasing in the UK, Cassar continues, and this constitutes additional economic burden on the state and taxpayer. 

“Our economic realities certainly should make us aware of the consequences on different levels; and therefore my claim that an impact assessment was necessary prior to any referendum is not only about the impact of a change on society as we know it, but on other issues, too.”

She points me towards article in The Telegraph by Ed West which purports to show divorce is ‘contagious’. 

“If divorce is contagious, then it changes the way we should look at something regarded as a fundamental right. Perhaps we should consider taxing it instead…”

Turning back to the proposed legislation, Cassar argues that it would only exacerbate existing social problems.

“The current proposal does not limit the number of times when a person can opt for divorce. The state and the citizens will therefore be bearing the brunt of such instances even if people would want to divorce a second, third and fourth time. Besides, the ‘no consent’ requirement presents a situation against the party who does not want to divorce… who might want to work and find a solution to the difficulty in the marriage. This is even more so when one considers that while at present we have a proposition for a divorce after four years of separation. There is nothing stopping this from changing at any time in Parliament. A year or a few years from now, it could be reduced even to six months. It can,” (she insists as I open my mouth to object) “and this has not been contested by the ‘Iva’ movement.”

Maybe not, but I’ll try and contest it now. Isn’t this true of any legislation passed through Parliament? There is nothing stop future legislatures from amending any law, if it has a majority in the House… and besides, the ‘alternative’ question (a straight Yes or No to divorce under any circumstance) would allow even more liberty to future generations to change the conditions as they deem fit.

Cassar acknowledges this, and even admits that she is not comfortable with the question as proposed by her own lobby group. But this, she argues, is all the more reason not to rush the legislation in the first place.

But the cornerstone of Cassar’s argument – secular though it undeniably is – is nonetheless virtually indistinguishable from the altogether more traditional argument we have come to expect from the ‘No’ lobby. Divorce changes the fundamental nature of marriage itself, with far-reaching social consequences.

“Divorce erodes the concept of marriage as a reference point,” she begins. “People are influenced by societal and cultural realities in their development both as children and also as adults. What becomes law is often equated to what is ‘right’. But that is not the case...”

I interrupt to point out an inherent flaw in this argument: few people would today argue that adultery should still be illegal (as it was before 1974 or thereabouts). But at the same time nobody would realistically argue that adultery is ‘right’. So isn’t it already possible to have something which is ‘legal’ without necessarily also being ‘right’?

“I am not saying that adultery should have remained to be an illegal act, no… still less that when culprits are caught they are to be stoned! I do understand that people have weaknesses, but the fact that it is not illegal has undeniably changed our mindset towards it.  People are becoming less secretive about it… and, might I add, often even boast about it. It is corroding healthy relationships, whether married or not, for infidelity happens anyway, in cohabiting and divorced couples. Does it make it right because it’s legal? This is my point with divorce and separation. While nobody can be forced to remain in a union if they want to leave, the fact that it is perceived to be a breakage of a union is possibly a deterrent for some people. I know many people who at some time or other had a moment of folly or weakness, and had a fling or even a relationship. But because they did not have the option of divorce – which would have given them the same rights and social recognition – they remained in their marriage. Today, 10 and 15 years later, they are still with their wives and husbands. Is this hypocrisy?  Or is it making an effort to make a relationship work, with all the ups and downs that life offers? I admit it can be a bit of both, but what I do know is that their families and children have benefited from their decision to stay together and have been spared the great pain of separation.”

Again, however, the objection practically raises itself: the ‘pain of separation’ still exists. The only difference is that in Malta we don’t call it ‘divorce’, and that the separated couples can’t remarry…

Cassar counters this with a sudden flood of statistics to prove that divorce has increased separation and cohabitations cases wherever it was introduced.

“To appreciate the impact on our society, we need to consider realities that occurred in Ireland – on whose divorce legislation the proposed bill was modelled. The Iona Institute studies indicate that in the 10 years since divorce was introduced, the number of separated and divorced went up by 100% while the number of cohabitating couples went up by 400%.  Children being raised outside married families constitute 26%...”

Possibly, but for every statistical study, there is one which produces equal and opposite results. I reply by pointing out a study which showed that the rate of separation in Ireland actually stabilised after the introduction of divorce… but Cassar returns fire with still more statistics.

“But percentages of children born out of wedlock have not stabilised or reduced anywhere where divorce was legalised. A Council of Europe study reveals that in France it stands at around 50%; Germany 30%; Spain 28% and Norway as well as Sweden around 54%. I’m not claiming that divorce is necessarily the culprit for this state of affairs; but neither has it solved the problem. I would say it is part of the contributing factors to such realities. Our percentages, on the other hand, are very different…”

By the same logic, Cassar reasons that legalising divorce will result in people perceiving separation as the right and correct thing to do. 

“This will destabilise even the way our children and young adults look at what is constant and stable, and the committal of contracts (if one wants to put it at this level). Nothing will remain permanent and we will increasingly become a society of disposables not only of goods but also of people. Ultimately, wisdom is what keeps societies strong and not absolute rights.”

avatar
Also all you are saying about divorce is in Vain! why? "cause every human being has the right to live his life". and you don't have and will never have the right to impone your beliefs upon others. All you are doing is for nothing, cause after this referendum , all will still eb the same as before, and life will goes on , and remember "smile" :)
avatar
@joyce Cassar, I said that you are doing all this for your own personal reasons.That in the bottom line is a bit misinterpreted. Could be to anyone.Cause there are others whom are speaking against divorce, not you only. ********** ************** There is nothing in this world that is done for nothing. There is always a reason. *************** and since you are in the front line- the comments you make public, you must expect to be criticized.
avatar
Joyce Cassar My comments were of a generic nature and did not refer to any person.
avatar
@haha & falzonsilvio I respect any disagreement with my views, but dishonest claims demonstrate more intolerance and character assassination than intelligent discussion. Just for the sake of honesty, the Z.B.D movement and my family...No i never broke from a marriage or relationship cause I had cheated on anybody. Yes I am a single parent but for reasons that I will not disclose here as it involves other people and what harm I have suffered I have forgiven. I have not presented myself as without fault but what "haha" seems to be insinuating about me...if I understood well as I might have taken it personally...well if so it is all a lie and it does remind me of some anonymous letters circulated in the late 90s! It is very much in line with a person I know who is in the habit of hiding and not showing their face...
avatar
@haha & falzonsilvio I respect any disagreement with my views, but dishonest claims demonstrate more intolerance and character assassination than intelligent discussion. Just for the sake of honesty, the Z.B.D movement and my family...No i never broke from a marriage or relationship cause I had cheated on anybody. Yes I am a single parent but for reasons that I will not disclose here as it involves other people and what harm I have suffered I have forgiven. I have not presented myself as without fault but what "haha" seems to be insinuating about me...if I understood well as I might have taken it personally...well if so it is all a lie and it does remind me of some anonymous letters circulated in the late 90s! It is very much in line with a person I know who is in the habit of hiding and not showing their face...
avatar
mela sewwa ghidt jiena, li Hi (X) qed tghid u taghmel ghaliha innifisha, waqt li bdiet titkellem mill-ewwell indunajt li hija qedha tiehu l-kwistjoni personali. Int ovvja nahseb li nahseb ghal X qed tirreferi :) Hemmhekk ghandek ragun 100%(NB Issa fimthu l-punt tieghek.....
avatar
Veru sur falzonsilvio, imma li tkun xi hadd taghmel hekk imbghad tippriedka kontra d-divorzju ci vuole mhux hekk?
avatar
Hallina ha nghixu Joyce....U kun aktar toleranti fuq bicca dritt civili. Qed tpinguha li qisha diehla il piena kapitali!! Jahasra x'medjevalizmu!!!
avatar
The point about divorce is simple, "If there is love between BOTH partners, nothing shall seperate them". I believe, that the one's against the divorce law, are just AFRAID. Yes they are. If not why are you AFRAID OF? Than the panel who are in against are told to be there, by the PN or by the CHURCH. the situation is crazy here , all PM fault. Before now and in the future , Married will still seperating. All are different cases , cause all people are different. So, what difference will the divorce law will make? will it seperate more people that allready are? NO,it won't. People are people ,that's all. with the divorce law and without the divorce law, all will be the same. but that is a civil right, so YES it must be there, for whom needs it! Common sense, the thing you are afraid of, sometimes will come upon you. Better to be there just in case, it can be you , or your kids. FEAR is the humans worst Nightmare! Why You should be afraid if you really believ your wife or your husband really loves you? It's just a law for whom needs it.
avatar
“First of all, I resent the fact that the divorce issue has been hijacked,” she begins. . It was hijacked by the NONONO movement. It started off as a bill presented by someone from both sides of the house, making it non-partisan. The Partit No turned it partisan. . “The way the private bill was put forward in such a rush implies that no consideration has been given to how sensitive and delicate the matter really is...” . Where has she been these last 30 years or more? Divorce has been discussed for at least that long. . "When a divorce law does not make any distinction between victims and… others (not to use such an ugly term as ‘culprits’); " . If a marriage has ended, then the law recognises the fact that it has ended. Culpability and consent are irrelevant to the fact that the marriage ended. Culpability does come into play during separation proceedings, which there always will be prior to the divorce. That's when assets are divided etc. . "So why are we not conducting an impact assessment on divorce, which is bound to have a profound impact on society… especially in such a small country?" . We've got the experiences of other countries to help us - in all cases divorce has been a positive influence. . "Besides, the ‘no consent’ requirement presents a situation against the party who does not want to divorce… who might want to work and find a solution to the difficulty in the marriage." . And if the other person has absolutely no intention of working to find a solution? How will the absence of divorce help? . "But because they did not have the option of divorce ..." . How do you know that was the reason? If they were willing to give their marriage another chance, they would still have been willing with divorce. Besides, with the legislation being proposed, there would still be 4 years for them to try to patch things up. If 4 years are not enough, no amount of time will.
avatar
@Haha, Ma tntx int haha int. Dan kollu paroli fil-vojt . dawn huma just opinjonijiet taghna. dik li ghidt int ma tanxt hija sabiha ta. ghax ma hemmx ghalfej tkun seperata ta biex tkin hekk. Hawn ommijiet mizzewga li ghandhom tfal min ta hadiehor u zewga ma jkun jaf b'xejn .
avatar
Last sentence....should read. Sounds tough but at least it makes your opposition to divorce more credible.
avatar
Joyce - in a nutshell ?..what muddled and contradictory statements. I honestly had to read most of the interview again and again to be sure I was correctly understanding things. The only thing you proved is that there is no secular dimension or angle to the Movement Against Divorce (MAD). To have a bit more credibility I suggest you start campaigning to re-criminalize adultery and outlaw separations. Sounds tough but at least it makes your opposition to divorce
avatar
Kif jghidu biex tiskongra trid tkun pur. Hemm min ikun separat għax ikun inqabad jibdel lill-parti l-oħra, imbaghad dik il-persuna taghmel zmien pogguta ma xi haddiehor, imbaghad terga' titlaq u tmur tpoggi ma persuni ohra u jkollha tarbija mill-partner il-gdid(a), imbaghad terga titlaq lill-dan il-partner u tibda tippriedka kemm huwa hazin id-divorzju.....
avatar
Let’s not kid ourselves Joyce, you don’t fool anybody by your secular rigmorale. In the Malta Today debate you suggested that passing the divorce bill would open the doors to gay rights. In short you are homophobic and anti democratic, thus you qualify as a Catholic fundamentalist. Its not something to be ashamed of, so why try to hide it? Take me I am a radical anticlerical socialist, on the extreme democratic left of the Labour Party.I tell eveybody with great pride, my parents were among those interdicted in the 60s I am passionate of my believes even though people of the PL avoid me like the plague. Neither statistics nor arguments against will ever eliminate the fact that divorce is a civil right. Your anti divorce stance is peculiar to Catholicism which possesses a pathological phobia of sex. Implying that decriminalising extra marital sex was deleterious to society is ludicrous but proves my previous point. You mentioned the menace to children. Many children are suffering not from divorce but because of abuse from their parents. Children are in difficulty because their parents are poor and feel deprived. Many of primary school age are being reared by their grandparents and hardly see their parents who are always working in order pay the huge debts on the house and other luxuries. What about those little ones who on the outside live in a picture perfect family but on the inside the parents hate each others guts and are always sqaubbling? You opine that if a partner cheats its preferable to forgive and forget. I believe it is up to the injured party to decide. Why are you (or anybody else for that matter) so presumptuous, to give advice on such a matter. There is no magic template to solve such a predicament. What infuriates me is that you Catholics are convinced you have the answer to everything, always prodigal with advice. Thank God I have been married for over 30 years. Do you think that I am qualified to give advice to a pal of mine who finds his wife has been seeing another one/ Do you think that reading books and statistics will help? Hell no! How can I feel what I have not experienced? Do you really believe things will continue as if nothing happened? Won’t it effect the children? Is it really fair to live with spouse who cheated your love and your trust? Is living a lie, better than divorce? If you break an expensive china vase and fix it with glue will it have the same value? You make it sound as if all evil stems from Divorce. All evil stems from the society we live in where the real values are a savage capitalism, the obliterating of solidarity, materialism, consumerism, sensual gratification, widespread promiscuity, the substitution of love with sex, rabid individualism, and the emphasis on the esthetical aspect of the human body: In a word hedonism . Has your church reacted to all this? or is it an accessory to the fact? All I know is that it a Sainted Josemaría Escrivá, the founder of Opus Dei, the religious organisation made up of high ranking capitalists from all over the world. Unfortunately it threw in oblivion Oscar Romero Archbishop of El Salvador assassinated on March 24 1980 while saying mass. He was guilty of defending the poor, the underprivileged and the lowest of the low in Latin America. PS. Joyce, Please as your theologian friend. Why is it that Jesus Christ was always with gits like us. While your church is always on the side of the rich and mighty.
avatar
Jessica Chetcuti
Punctuation. Interesting perception, however I take umbrage to the older generation remark. I hate saying “In my day” but I feel that it’s necessary to press my point home. I do believe that my generation looked upon marriage as a serious commitment and were certainly not naïve when they joined in holy matrimony. Most couples knew exactly what they were letting themselves in for, and for that reason they were mostly well prepared for it. Of course it goes without saying that it didn’t work out for everybody. Today’s generation are no different, although it seems that many are quick to realise that marriage is not always the bed of roses they thought it would be, and is something that has to be worked on, which I feel that a lot of young couples are not prepared to do. Although I have been married for 46 years, I would still vote yes for divorce. . ps While you attribute the divorce rate going down to the young generation knowing better, I would attribute it to the fact that more people are living together as common-law.
avatar
What happens when there are no culprits, and the two parties in a marriage just grow apart and wish to divorce? Does Ms Cassar agree with divorce in this case?
avatar
Separations and breakdowns are not always a matter of culprits and victims. It takes two to make a marriage - and many times it takes two to break a marriage too. Because of this I disagree with Ms Cassar's idea of the "culprit's" rights being curtailed, as though this is some game involving rewards and punishments.
avatar
The problem with all of what she said is that she assumes two people not divorcing/separating is always a good thing. She assumes that children being born out of wedlock is always a bad thing. She also assumes that the pain that comes with separation and divorce is not justifiable in the long term. She says "what I do know is that their families and children have benefited from their decision to stay together and have been spared the great pain of separation." She assumes that being spared this 'great pain' is necessarily better than any other outcome. How does she know that? Maybe there could have been better outcomes. Maybe persisting in a committing oneself to a relationship is not always the right decision to make. Also at some point she says:"But as a responsible citizen I cannot be in favour giving rights to all arbitrarily! In society we have rights, yes, but these need to be closely bound to responsibilities. We cannot give rewards indiscriminately because in the long term this is what causes negative influences on mindsets especially the most vulnerable groups…” Rights are not rewards. And marriage at the civil level provides little rewards, really. It only provides a certain level of union between the two persons at an economic and civil level providing a certain ease of mind about the uncertain future. Which I can't help but feel we should not deny to any committed couple. Also, divorce rates have been going down, a quick search on google will confirm that for anyone who wants a source. I attribute that to a new generation who actually realizes what marriage and divorce are all about, and don't marry the first person who comes around like the older generations did. The older generations would enter naively into marriage, not prepared for it, and as soon as divorce was introduced they took the opportunity and left the nest. In Malta we probably won't have that problem. We have been exposed to the effects of divorce through the largely American media we have been exposed to. We actually prepare for our marriages. We have greater religious associations with marriage. And we have proximity. Due to proximity divorce and separation wouldn't be the most easy of decisions, given that social judgement and gossip is almost certain.
avatar
I think you are all doing this ,for your own personal reasons joyce, nothing else nothing more!
avatar
Jessica Chetcuti
Well said Peter Paul, I couldn’t agree more. . I’m now at the stage where I find that any further discussion on the subject of divorce turns into a pointless argument. And no matter how much the media try to turn this into an increasingly hysterical divorce campaign it will continue to be fought over by the “for” or “against” campaigner’s ad nauseum. . Don’t get me wrong this is certainly no trivial matter but unlike Joyce Cassar I feel that this is dragging on too long now...... Lets face it most sensible people knew ages ago how they would vote if they ever had the chance. Now they will have that chance next month, their opinion isn’t going to change.
avatar
duncan abela
Nothing more than an attempt bound to fail at acting as a Trojan horse for the No divorce camp. If JC was truly a secularist and more so a Liberal the principle of divorce being a civil right would reign supreme in her mind. I would prefer dealing with those who have a blinkered but honest conviction against divorce rather than those who stay in the witch hunt while pretending to show understanding for the disenfranchised.
avatar
Joseph Galea
It is hardly necessary to comment on the weakness of every argument presented by Ms Cassar. The interviewer has answered them point by point and shown them to be, at best, unsound. Cassar tries to distance herself from the fundamentalist religious opposition to the legalization of divorce but she fails to present any other argument that bears logical scrutiny. Her stand is full of contradictions. She is not against divorce in principle but does not want to see it legalized – at least not now (but she doesn’t say when it should be introduced). On the other hand, she is against adultery but wants it to be legal! There are many quotable quotes in this interview but I think the last sentence is a gem. So wisdom (did she really use this word?) is the solution to our social problems! But, pray, how are we all going to acquire this rarest of qualities? So human and civil rights are not absolute but can be restricted according to the whims of the rulers, political or religious, of the country! Ms Cassar should not rush in where angels fear to tread.
avatar
HALLINA. GHAX MA TIDHOLX SORU ALLURA. MELA GHAX INT MA LTAQT MA HADD WARA IS-SEPARAZZJONI TIEGHEK, INT TRID LI KULHADD JKUN BHALEK. TKUNX EGOISTA . MELA GHAX MA BQAJTX MIZZEWGA U MA SSEPARATX. F'GHAJNEJN IL-KNISJA XORTA QED TGHIX FID-DNUB. ALLURA GHALFEJN QED TILGHABA TAL-QADDISA.
avatar
Divorce has been discussed by civil society for the last 25 years. Let us move on now!
avatar
mhuix ahjar tmur tippriedka fuq xi stazzjon.